The MSX Resource Center’s rotten user community
Posted by Javi Lavandeira in MSX, Rants, Retro, Stupidity | May 19, 2016The MSX Resource Center (most commonly known as MRC) is currently the biggest MSX user community on the Internet. It started when Sander van Nunen in the Netherlands registered the msx.org domain around 1996. Search results for “MSX” or “MSX computers” on Google show the MRC near the top because their domain name matches the search and also because it has been around for so long.
This is unfortunate, because the MRC is a toxic community and it keeps harming the MSX scene.
The latest incident happened just yesterday. What started as a post about Brazilian MSX users taking a stand against piracy ended in a heated discussion when the user foobarry81 attacked the game developer Kralizec. The MRC moderators did nothing to stop this user, resulting in continuous attacks agains Kralizec and several users publicly announcing they were leaving the MRC for good.
In other words, a shitstorm.
Original post (Click to enlarge)
Keep reading for the details.
foobarry81’s first provocation (Click to enlarge)
foobarry81’s message was not only off topic, but also a lie intended to defame and provoke Kralizec. At this point, and not a second later, a moderator should have stepped in and kick this idiot out the door.
They didn’t.
Instead, the MRC admin Jorrith Schaap (Jorito), and ex-admins Jelle Jelsma (Meits) and Maarten van Strien (wolf_) chose to get some popcorn (literally) and enjoy the circus. They even made their position clear in the thread, which only encouraged the troll and hurt Kralizec’s position. Kralizec were represented in the thread by Armando Pérez (Ramones), their coder.
Another MRC admin (Sander Zuidema, AKA snout) was apparently too scared about asserting any authority, and made a couple of timid attempts to ask people to behave:
“I suggest everyone cools down a little bit“?? I suggest you do your fucking job, assert your authority and handle the situation.
Another MRC admin (who has requested to remain anonymous) not only did nothing to stop foobarry81, but instead kept cluelessly feeding the troll, allowing him to throw more attacks against Kralizec:
The result? Several people publicly announced their departure from the MRC forum, including Ramones. Many more were alienated and will probably think twice before trying to express their opinion in this site. On top of that, the MSX Resource Center admins must now remove all the Kralizec games from their downloads database (they were available for free until now) at the request of Ramones.
Well done, MRC admins, well done. You let a troll control your thread for three days and your actions led to even more damage to the MSX scene.
It’s not the first time
This would be just a sad (but annoying) anecdote if it wasn’t for the fact that this kind of thing keeps happening again and again at the MRC.
You may remember that last December I posted here about another big problem with the moderators there. In that case, Andrew Darovich (Arkhan) was insulted by the admins and banned after he pointed out (correctly) that the graphics for Kai’s game were ripped from Metroid Prime. I myself was attacked on that same thread for disagreeing with how Arkhan had been treated. I haven’t been on the MRC since then (and never will).
Around 2005, Patriek Lesparre (GuyveR800) was banned from the MRC after becoming a scapegoat in an internal dispute between other admins. To this day, Zuidema and other admins have been seen insulting and defaming GuyveR800 in the msx.org forums. Albert Beevendorp (BiFi), who was previously an MRC admin, was asked to step down because he was close to GuyveR800. They’re both members of The New Image, and chances are that you’re using their software every day, especially if you have a mass-storage cartridge in your MSX, such as the MegaFlashROM SD+SCC.
The MSX Resource Center garden
The MRC community is like a garden. Anybody with common sense would remove the weeds, kill the pests and fertilize the flowers. However, things don’t work like that in the MSX Resource Center forums.
There, the admins remove some of the flowers, act as pests themselves, and then tell everybody else to respect and live together with the weeds that are killing the community.
Whether they do this on purpose or because they’re clueless is beyond my understanding. What’s clear to me at this point is that the user community at the MRC is not unlike an abandoned plot infested with weeds and garbage.
The MRC user community
Aftermath
After a flame war of more than 200 messages they decided to wipe the whole thread (here‘s a huge 990×74358 screenshot of the thread up to the last few hours) and closed the discussion with a pointless “let’s all be friends” post, ironically from Jorito, who had been one of the admins fueling the attacks:
(Click to enlarge)
No, you fucking idiot. You were one of the instigators in all this mess. You and your fellow admins are to blame for what has happened.
“Be respectful to each other“? No. Take your political correctness and stick it deep up your ass, where it belongs. While by default everybody deserves to be respected, some behaviors must be stopped the moment they happen. The weeds in the garden must be removed and the pests killed, if your intention is to have a healthy user community. Your inability to understand this shows that you’re not qualified to run an online user community.
As I already said before, in its current state the MSX Resource Center is a cancer in the MSX user community.
Time to make your own. home.msx or something related to MSX-basic/MSXDOS structure. Fuck bad administration.
Exactly.
in 2004 we had msxposse.com (i think i arrived there by public invitation of @pitpan, since he got also very pissed off from that @GuyveR800 banning then ) – and the fact is that, now, msxposse.com is a redirect to msx.org – so i guess we all might need another alternative? there is also karoshi.auic.es, but it seems to get very limited of server disk space or something like that (showing sql errors every time we start a thread, doesn’t allows us to include attachments anymore, etc.) – so, if anyone can suggest alternatives, or where do you are all planning to move to, please let us know! ;)
Server space and bandwidth is no problem. Send me an email.
i’ll do, but i think there is no need for that – a new forum would be a request from the whole scene, not only me – what made me “sabbatically” leaving 12 years ago is totally different of what we see happening now, since i didn’t see anyone being banned, even considering that the attitude from the admins there were not the most correct, but i think it, even not being cool at all, was not as bad as 12 years ago – but obviously this situation raises a huge concern, you know, will that situation happened 12 years ago reoccur? in that situation that i think that we might need a good forum, a good place alternative to msx.org, even for helping msx.org admins to brief, “smell the flours”, reflect and evolve to a better and more polite practices, as we usually see in the best administrated communities – if that is possible elsewhere, i can’t doubt that would happen at msx.org as well – when we all make mistakes, whatever mistake they are, this should always be considered a excellent opportunity to learn, and from the other side, it is our responsibility to be always blunt of the whole situations, and keep them always under eyes, for the sake of the whole retro scene
Yesterday I asked them to remove my account (couldn’t find out how to do it myself) and no wonder that still no answer…
I definitely agree with JL: those people aren’t able to run an online community. They just can’t do it (and shouldn’t do it).
It’s not possible to remove your account from the MRC. Even if you ask them they don’t want to (I did insist and Anne declined).
Update: they are now accepting account deletion requests. I finally got my two accounts deleted (ag0ny and JaviLM).
Yep, they finally responded to my request and gently deleted my account.
Bye, bye. MRC.
I also left the MRC because of that shameful thread. As you point out, Javi, the problem is not only the disrespectful users, but the fact that admins did nothing and they even made jokes.
Actually, I also saw similar attitudes in several MSX related facebook groups, so I decided to cease all my “social media” activity related to MSX.
Yes, this problem doesn’t happen only in the MRC. It happens on Facebook groups as well. Looks like it is some kind of bad habit in the whole MSX community.
The MRC is just the biggest community, so that’s where the biggest damage is being done.
i would name that as “behaviourism immaturity”, from both admins and those uncontrollably transformed that thread into a jungle of offenses – anyway, it’s natural we all being “behaviourism immature”, even if we all were psychologists! :D – so i think that all of these situations are excellent examples for constantly learning more about, specially when we all are humble enough to accept that
After the last blowout that you referenced, I decided to not go back, ever. Not even to lurk and see what is going on.
I can’t take a place seriously that yells at me for “attacking” someone, all the while, attacking me with the same actions they are yelling at me for.
They’re a clueless bunch of morons, and they always end their flame war blowouts with a bunch of hippy posts about being nice to each other.
It’s apparently never occurred to them to just step in and moderate instead of dumping fuel on the fire.
If they did that, there wouldn’t need to be any kumbaya posts.
Just piping in here to state the following:
I haven’t been MRC crew anymore for a while, dunno exactly anymore but it’s probably halfway 2014 or so. See: https://www.msx.org/page/about-us
Why? Been busy with work, which involves writing all day long (webshop product pages, news and blogs for one of the world’s largest music retailers), so when I get home I’m like: no more writing.
As for the popcorn: deservedly so! All parties have been acting like annoying brats with poor and offensive communication skills.
Know what? I don’t even have a clue where I am now! I saw so many Latin’ish (nick)names joining the tirade (or wherever they come from), I really have no idea who are the good guys and the bad guys here. And frankly my dear: I don’t even care. The popcorn wasn’t aimed at either side, it was aimed at the whole arena!
I even have no idea why this whole thread started. It appears to be about people using third party content without permission. So what? It’s not like we’re holy or anything. Do note that I’m not stating that in the context of MSX anno 2016 this is good or bad, I’m not taking sides here. But boy, couldn’t you all count to ten or something? The debate that was on display was so pointless regarding its style in every aspect that it was laughable. Hence: popcorn, lots ‘n lots of popcorn.
Law? Legal stuff? I’m sure a lawyer could pick sides, I’m not here to tell anyone the law. I’m here to point out that within days there was a shitstorm of over 200 reactions with no sign of it grinding to a halt.
As for the TNI chapter, as far as I remember that’s a whole different thing. You know, strawberries are red, and traffic lights are (mostly) red, but that doesn’t mean that traffic lights are strawberries. And unless you’ve been one of the parties, you don’t know all the details. There’s only hearsay, and whichever side you find more believable: it’s only hearsay. Agree to disagree, that’s my advice.
So, summary:
– I’m not MRC crew anymore, so don’t address me as such.
– During the thread, no-one asked me to write or show anything.
– I don’t pick sides, and I care even less about who is right. I don’t even know who is who, nor do I know who released what. For the simple reason I’m slightly inactive since late-2012, so I don’t follow the latest gossip all that much.
– Legally, even if someone is right, was this all worth it?
– I’m not out to find someone to play kung-fu with, so, if possible: paz!
I haven’t been MRC crew anymore for a while,
Thanks, I’ve fixed the text.
As for the popcorn: deservedly so! All parties have been acting like annoying brats…
I strongly disagree. If I’m in a public place and I see somebody stand up and start a fight with somebody who was just minding his business (as happened in that MRC thread), what I do is get in the middle and stop the aggressor. What you’re doing is making fun of the situation and encouraging the attacker, which turns you into just another brat yourself.
Even more so if you’re a well-known member of the MSX community (which you are, even if you’re not an admin). You may not realize this, but people see your name in music disks and demos and many look up to you. You should be setting an example for others to follow.
A rectification is in place. I stopped being an admin at mrc a while ago.
Making a silly joke is imho better than calling each other names, don’t you think?
About moderating: This can never be done right in the eyes of everyone. What one wants to see removed, another one sees as cencorship if it actually gets removed.
Normally the mrc visitors can ease each other down so the conversation gets on topic again. And admins aren’t around 24/7… Some of them tend to sleep and work and have private time… If they take a look at the site they maintain and find out there’s a mud fight of 100+ posts going on, you can’t expect them to halt it as soon as it derails… And if an admin steps in, why can’t he weigh his words and try to maintain the piece still left? Does he need to act like a police officer? The visitors aren’t kids ;)
As I’ve heard of someone of the admins, there was just one mod alert, so it turns out everybody else was okay with this mudfight… i think that’s a bit more worrying than admins stepping in with a gentle approach…
I know you have a grudge against this site and some of its (ex)admins for a reason you’re allowed to have. It’s your right to not like them/me, but I think you can agree that your blog post didn’t add anything positive to the “situation” as you got this grudge and just one side of the story.
To conclude this reation, here are two links which might be useful:
mrc’s policies which everybody agreed on (even if they didn’t read them) when signing up/writing reaction: https://www.msx.org/page/policies
and the list of admins: https://www.msx.org/page/about-us
Now you’re updated again ;)
The thing about screenshots of posts is, they’re not one sided. They’re literally what someone said. Thankfully these were capped, too.
MRC did their classic “delete everything” move, which hides all of the fail.
The bright side to a blog post like this is, it might save people from wasting time posting at MRC in the future.
They won’t have to learn the hard way that the administration does a shit job.
It is quite literally the worst handled retro computer forum I have ever posted at.
I spent most of my childhood thru college posting on C=/Amiga forums, and let me tell you, MRC is a total joke compared to those forums and the way they operate.
The moderation is inconsistent. Sometimes its a bunch of deleting/banning.
Other times it is non existent, and the admins join in the pissing contest.
Moderators are supposed to be impartial, and consistent.
It sucks that MRC staff hasn’t figured this out yet.
I stopped being an admin at mrc a while ago.
Fixed, thanks.
About moderating: This can never be done right in the eyes of everyone.
Not true. Moderating is easy when you have a clear set of rules that are understood by both users and moderators, that are enforced consistently regardless of the moderators’ personal issues.
Most other online forums handle moderation just fine, even the ones with much more traffic and fewer resources than the MRC.
And of course, you’re never going to be friends with everybody. Sometimes you’ll have to tell people to take their conversation elsewhere, and sometimes you’ll have to man up and kick or ban a user. That’s part of being a moderator. If you can’t accept that responsibility, then don’t be a moderator.
What one wants to see removed, another one sees as cencorship if it actually gets removed.
It doesn’t matter. If the set of rules is clear and they’re applied correctly, then whatever they think is irrelevant. As I said, the moderators aren’t required to be friends with everybody. They’re required to apply the rules.
And admins aren’t around 24/7… Some of them tend to sleep and work and have private time…
Doesn’t apply. foobarry81’s attack started at 18:53. snout had been posting on this thread before that so it’s fair to suppose that he received email notifications about new posts. But let’s be fair and suppose he didn’t. He posted again just 3 hours after foobarry81 and in his message it’s obvious he had read the thread. He could have taken care of it then, but he didn’t.
It’s your right to not like them/me,…
No. I don’t like or dislike people. I like or dislike behaviors. People aren’t robots. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and next time we don’t make the same mistake again. I don’t think it’s fair to dislike someone forever because they made a mistake in the past.
To me it’s very simple: when you’re doing something positive, I’ll congratulate and support you. If you’re doing something negative, then I’ll oppose you and try and get you to correct what you’re doing. Maybe even at the same time, if you happen to be doing a positive thing in one place and a negative thing in another.
As an example, Kai and the Life on Mars affair. He said he had created the assets in the game, which wasn’t true, and I called him out on that. Recently (May 9th) he announced Rune Monster on Facebook, and this time he did things the right way, and I publicly congratulated him on that.
…mrc’s policies which everybody agreed on (even if they didn’t read them) when signing up…
Those policies are worthless.
First, I (and many others) never saw or agreed to them. Those of us who had accounts before the 2000 redesign were migrated to the new site without having to agree on anything.
Second, these are just legalese to cover your ass in situations like this one. When something bad happens, somebody points at the rules and says “It’s not our fault! Look, we have some rules here!”, so nobody at the MRC has to take responsibility.
If those rules were intended to create a sane community then they would be clear and concise, and the moderators would be posting them in relevant forums at periodic intervals so nobody misses them.
What it really sucks is such evil and obscure MSX scene we have to deal every day, a shame.
MRC is doing its best in order to support the MSX scene from many years ago, an example, just the opposite you are doing here right now. Remember MRC is a hobbyist site made by hobbyist and the personal life comes first as you may suppose.
Javi, I’m really dissapointed in you. Are you trying to set yourself up as the MSX user reference or something like that? Are you trying to tell us what is correct or not? Then…
Could you please be so kind to explain your history and relationships with the MSX community in the past (even recently)? You should do it, you must do it! Probably everybody would understand your behaviour now and why many people don’t want to have anything to do with you. You have a serious problem my friend…
For those who are dissapointed with the MRC. Ok, my respect, but just an advice, don’t support this guy…
PS: Javi, you and some like you hate the MRC but somehow you are not able to avoid visiting the site… Why? ;-)
MRC is doing its best in order to support the MSX scene from many years ago
No, it’s not. Look at how many old timers and developers have been banned or have left the MRC lately. The MRC is forcing out the people who are actually doing stuff, while the troublemakers are allowed to stay. That’s leaving you with a crappy community.
an example, just the opposite you are doing here right now.
Pointing out what’s wrong is necessary to improve things. If you can’t accept criticism then you’re never going to become better.
Remember MRC is a hobbyist site made by hobbyist and the personal life comes first as you may suppose.
All other emulator / retro sites are made and run by hobbyists, and they’re doing just fine.
Could you please be so kind to explain your history and relationships with the MSX community in the past (even recently)?
Sure, it’s not a secret: http://www.lavandeira.net/about/
Let me say that you are totally in the wrong place. Whether you like or not the MRC is open and support any MSX activity even when it comes from that rotten MSX community to which you belong. An obscure community that aims to discredit the MRC by all means. This is a fact.
On the other hand, you didn’t understand my question about your history with the MSX community, it’s my fault, sorry. Should I ask about your behaviour to the Spanish MSX community in the past? aaMSX? MSX Club Boixos?, etc. Yes, your fellow citizens! Now the MRC, is this a coincidence? As I told you earlier, you have a serious problem.
It’s clear that most of people only know just what you want to show here in your CV but they don’t really know who you really are. In few words, it seems that you want to show to the world yourself as an exemplary person but the reality is very different.
And yes, you are right, it’s good to accept criticism but in a constructive manner. Your case is totally different, it’s a chilhood tantrum against the MRC.
…the MRC is open and support any MSX activity…
Open your eyes. The MRC is just a forum, nothing else. They just have a frontpage where they post news submitted by its users, and a wiki, with the content also provided by its users.
How does exactly the MRC “support” MSX activity? They don’t sponsor developers. They don’t create any software, hardware or content. They don’t have an online shop to help software developers or hardware manufacturers sell their products. They don’t even have links to the online shops who DO sell MSX products!
When you tell me that the MRC supports MSX activity I can only laugh.
…even when it comes from that rotten MSX community to which you belong. An obscure community that aims to discredit the MRC by all means.
Look at how you write. You’re a fanatic, and you’re obviously biased against anything done by these of us you consider your enemies. This shows in the way you (and other MRC admins/moderators) behave in the MSX Resource Center.
You’re also a hypocrite, because every single time you turn on your MSX you’re using software written by people in this “rotten” and “obscure” community.
Should I ask about your behaviour to the Spanish MSX community in the past? aaMSX? MSX Club Boixos?
No, go ahead. Don’t ask. Post it here yourself.
Yes, your fellow citizens
My “fellow citizens”? I’m not influenced by nationalities, or by who says/does something, but only by what is being said/done. The fact that you’re even saying this shows that peer pressure is a factor for you, and you’re inclined to be on the side of those surrounding you even when they’re wrong.
It’s clear that most of people only know just what you want to show here in your CV but they don’t really know who you really are.
And you think know me any better? Here’s your reality check: you don’t.
Remember Javi what I said, the MRC is a hobbyist site made by hobbyist so don’t
try to stablish a professional comparison please.
Just to be clear… If you are looking for an exemplary code of conduct or procedure,
there is a huge, huge difference about the MRC and you. Once again the MRC aims
to support and help the MSX scene which it wouldn’t be still here today or at
least with the same vigor. Better or worse but it’s its unique goal since 1994! I’m not a fanatic, it’s the reality.
Your case is completely different. It’s very remarkable how skilled you are to
come into conflict with whatever you don’t share, attacking several MSX members
or groups from time to time. Just what the MSX needs nowadays, don’t you think?. Several antecedents support this fact and no need to explain anything, the veteran Spanish community don’t forget your past and now the international scene is discovering who you really are…
You don’t support, you destroy and this blog is a clear example. Now is the turn of the MRC, in near future who knows… Even you need to take some screenshots! Ridiculous! :-D In few words psychopathic traits.
I respect and understand the opinion and reasons about why some people were disappointed in the MRC but I don’t accept your malicious behaviour, just the opposite of the MRC team’s intention. You don’t have the right to act in that way.
That’s all, from my side I have nothing to say from now on, it’s clear enough. Be happy with your Relearning MSX. Bye bye…
Remember Javi what I said, the MRC is a hobbyist site made by hobbyist…
Excuses.
Once again the MRC aims to support and help the MSX scene which it wouldn’t be still here today or at least with the same vigor.
Bullshit. The MRC has created more division in the MSX scene than any other group.
Your case is completely different… Several antecedents support this fact and no need to explain anything, …
Coward. You bring up these “antecedents” but don’t want to say what they are? Is it perhaps because you have no fucking clue regarding what you’re talking about? You’ve heard echos of “Javi has stolen the aamsx.org domain” and “Javi has told RCastillo he’s an asshole”, and you’ve swallowed it all because it came from somebody close to you. Then you become part of the problem by spreading more bullshit you know nothing about.
That’s all, from my side I have nothing to say from now on, it’s clear enough. Be happy with your Relearning MSX. Bye bye…
Oh, it’s that easy, huh? You don’t have the balls to back up your claims. You first accuse me of some “dark past”, then run away without saying what these are.
I’m going to give you once last chance. Say what it is that “the veteran Spanish community doesn’t forget” about my past, or I’m deleting all your messages. You have until I go to bed (2 hours from now).
BTW, is not rotten the MSX user community, it seems, you want to lead?
No. Most MSX users are just normal, nice people. Like mostly everybody else.
It’s not the MSX user community that’s rotten. It’s the MRC’s user community. Read well the title of this post.
I’ve never said I want to lead anything.
Yes, I understood the title perfectly the first time no need to read again.
BTW, most MSX users are normal, you are not included there, you know…
I’ve never met Mr. Lavandeira and I don’t know him, but I must say I agree with his wise words.
Never entered the mrc because of its bad moderation and… mmm… “dutch biased style”.
Scum like foobarry(mars?) make me sick.
Popcorn jokes are even worse, though: shame on you, mrc.
I really hope that mrc removes all Kralizec stuff from its download database ASAP
:(
Just wondering Javi, if you were the admin, what exactly would you have done?
I would have deleted foobarry81’s post and sent him a private message explaining that his comment was offtopic in that thread, and that if he’s concerned about the usage of franchises in indie games then he can open a new thread to discuss that subject in general terms.
If he especifically wanted to blame Kralizec for anything then he can take it up with them via private mail.
I would also attach a copy of the forum rules.
i agree, sending private messages before removing messages or threads should be always the very first thing to do – i think this mostly penvents any chance of seeing an explosion of Godwin’s laws threads reappearing over and over again – this is about the basic thing to do, respect to be respected, and kindness always generates kindness.
Fully agree with this post.
Long ago that MRC forum has become a mediatic circus, where MRC admins let pirates like mars200you / foobarry and friends tread down the Developer’s works, while they are having fun from the couch at home eating popcorn.
Perhaps this pirates are those who will continue to maintain the msx alive. With new games or developments.
I have also requested the cancellation of my account. Luckily, since yesterday, I’m not user of the MRC.
what do you mean by “pirate”? being activist of Pirate Party? or a misinterpretation of the definition at http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy ?
For those who let their accounts be removed: I wonder, what is the point of that? Your posts won’t get deleted. Or is it just a form of protest?
I can’t speak for others. In my particular case yes, it’s a form of protest.
Our posts won’t get deleted but our nickname will (those posts are now shown as made by a sort of anonymous user).
Of course it’s a form of protest, but it’s also a way to express disagreement with the MRC’s moderators behaviour and to be consistent with that.
Yeah, I wouldn’t leave if it had been an isolated issue but, unfortunately, there have been too ‘isolated issues’ on the MRC history.
My nickname still appears with all the posts! It seems only the amount of “user points” has been reset?!
What kind of account deletion is this?! It seems nothing is deleted at all. For me, already being banned for 10+ years, nothing changed, except for the user point display…
True. I see now it’s the same on my posts. That’s weird.
A half-assed solution, because from the other users’ point of view, it’s as if I’m still there.
The nickname should be changed to “Deleted user” or something similar.
10 years ago i left for solidarity with GuyveR800 and BiFi, and that was why i were mostly at MSXPosse forum instead of msx.org – only few years ago i arrived there back (i guess mostly because of my entries for MSXDev (those made on Boriel’s ZX-Basic Compiler), or people at Karoshi forum or at Facebook talking about some threads there, or something like ) – but, you know, seeing such situations reappearing (the most unfair the worse it is) might make me wish leaving again, since i also don’t want to be associated with such situation that i don’t agree happening at all
A suggestion: perhaps it would help if the people who think there should be better moderation on MRC would just sign up for the that task and become admin? I’m sure the MRC team can use some admin help indeed and perhaps you guys can just show the current admins the way how it should be done.
Yes, I’m serious here. MRC is the biggest MSX forum on the internet, so why not try to make it better together?
Because that wouldn’t achieve anything. Look at who the admins are:
– Julio Gracia (mesiasmsx) has been spreading bullshit about me in Spanish user meetings, mailing lists and other online groups for years.
– Paco Santos (PAC) was here doing just the same thing until I deleted his messages yesterday, and he doesn’t even know what he’s complaining about, he’s just repeating stuff he’s heard.
– Sander Zuidema (snout) has personal issues with other members of the MSX scene (which is fine), and is letting those issues influence the way he behaves online.
Helping a group that is openly hostile against me is very, very low in my list of priorities.
As you talk about me I answer.
I think your pathetic answer unfortunately see what other people really can be true.
I remember when I met you as a member of Draken good person I thought you and thank you met my friend Paco Santos. Something that occasionally I have given thanks.
You should ask if the cancer is you. You looked for my protection in a Ru Barcelona with Manuel Dopico problems, problems that really did not concern me. Maybe that hurt you. Before your “problems” with the AAMSX for dominance. Despite this and other things you’ve always been right but my thinking over you been changed.
Your comments on the draft Kai or MSX-VR more recently have always been in a hostile line.
And Paco is an excellent person who does not deserve to spend your valuable time with you.
And again, thanks for your work in Draken and get in touch with Paco Santos. A great moderator and much better person.
And do not waste your time with me please be best for you.
Manuel, your suggestion is *exactly* what has caused the whole problem. There was a time when snout and Latok disagreed with the moderation practices on msx.org, and asked me (yes, ME) to join the team to help the situation.
However they were silenced (apparently literally) by the other admins who didn’t agree.
In order to gain back power, snout then turned himself against his friend (again, ME) and the friends of his friend, and the friends of the friends of his friend, ad infinitum. And this is how the current situation came to be.
So many MSX’ers have left MRC due to displeasure, fear of getting banned, being tired of the FUD, the trolling, the chest thumping, the boycotting, the ivory tower, the fact that MRC does NOT communicate with the people they ban, even though they claim they do… The list just goes on and on.
So yes, the MSX Related Community (msx.org) is a cancer.
Manuel, If the current administration is too inept to understand these problems and fix them, it’s safe to assume they are too inept (read: unwilling) to bring on new admins who will do the right thing.
AFAIK, the admins don’t seem to think there is anything wrong with MRC.
Jokes on them.
Here’s MRC:
http://www.historyinanhour.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Hindenburg-disaster.jpg
These same dumbass problems have been occurring as long as I have been present.
It’s very predictable. All of the apologies/attempts to fix things come too little, too late.
So, what is the solution then? Apparently you (the people who responded here) have given up on improving MRC… what’s the alternative you propose?
The alternative is being worked on, don’t worry.
Meanwhile, after years of asking for it, and then demanding it, and then referring them to the law, finally thanks to MrSpock my account, that had been banned for 10+ years is finally deleted.
One simple solution would be: Get dedicated active administrators for the website, that actually are able to do moderation.
Work & private life, is probably something you come with.
Everyone does have a life, even so if a moderator is able to make a comment in the discussion, it also means he does have the actual time to moderate.
When I yesterday brought up in the chat, MRC is basically a dieing platform and you responded with MRC having over 20.000 posts per year.
Nice numbers, bu the average per day is quite low, for a website with a lot of users ( not sure how many ).
You called that a conspiracy and instantly decided to leave the chatroom.
It ain’t a conspiracy, it is the damn reality and true after all You even had no valid arguments to say I was on with conspiracy, the problem with you is Manuel, you just say stuff that ain’t right if you’re wrong. Admitting you’re wrong sometimes ain’t a crime, try it sometimes!
@GuyveR800 a new msx forum coming? and perhaps a new whole community? wow, thank you! – and seeing that (i might be wrong) that msxposse.com were host in a TNI server, i guess we will have our good old conversations available there back again, even as a backup? that would be really amazing! ;)
at https://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/msx-resource-center/forum-policy-vs-constructive-attitudes#comment-294859 i invited Jorito and everyone else reading that thread to follow the comments we are writing here – i think that the most bluntly and honestly we critique the way msx.org and all forums and social network groups works, and the most humbly we all accept our mistakes when exists, more helpful and participative we will be in their improvement
@nitrofurano: TNI never hosted msxposse.com, so that will unfortunately remain offline.
We did host eur.msxa.org for a while, until the good folks at MRC decided to make a big issue out of it, and started making conspiracy theories. This was one of the biggest damages that MRC inflicted upon MSX.
But yeah, TNI will be hosting something very interesting, soon.
i started this thread there, let’s see what happens: https://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/msx-resource-center/forum-policy-vs-constructive-attitudes
Do you run away always like that every problem of life?
the issue i am seeing is not leaving as running away of problems, i think it was just not being interested in supporting or getting associated with attitudes that they don’t agree or can’t stand, which was what happened to me and a lot of people back 12 years ago
it is just like Jacque Fresco says: “if someone wants to leave, just be friendly and help them packing”
I use the MSX because I enjoy it, and I’m in MSX communities because I enjoy them.
If I don’t enjoy a community because some members are being hostile, then there’s no obligation for me to stay or to even try and correct them. It’s not my job or my responsibility, and it’s certainly not a “problem of life”.
i see exactly in the same way – my “responsibility” in that case is about trying to be honest to myself and everybody else, if something is not working as desired, and if we can do something, why not helping? specially seeing that what happened recently, even both not being cool at all, is clearly different from what happened 12 years ago, and i think that situation helped a lot lots of things getting more mature, which is actually an ongoing process (sometimes very slow and even painful) – and then, as we see most of us saying that msx.org is a cancer (imho, the cancer 12 years ago were way far worse than it is now), while we keep hearing this, for sure that msx.org will still have a lot to evolve, and their admins just humbly have their responsibility to recognize and accept that, exactly as i would if i also was an admin there
They never did and they never will.
Their words are either meaningless, or flat out lies.
MRC is no democracy, and it never was. No matter what Sander van Nunen says about it.
The saying goes “actions speak louder than words” and their actions are loud and clear.
I don’t see it as lies. I think it’s rather a combination of internal conflicts, difference of opinions and personal issues that despite the good intentions of some, still manage to paralize these actions.
They’re just too many people.
The only solution I can see that doesn’t imply Sander (van Nunen) kicking everybody out and doing all the maintenance himself would be to completely open the internal discussions so everybody knows what they’re discussing and who is pulling in each direction. Not likely to happen.
The MSX scene, especially in the NL and it seems Brazil, has since the beginning of the scene (after the commercial distribution of MSX hardware and software stopped) been a battlefield. Whether this is typical for MSX or due to the puber nature of the scene members would be a nice subject for a dissertation!
After feeding much as possible technical information in the MSX world with my website MSX Info Pages I received my portion of the crap, coming from TNI members Patriek, Albert, Laurens and joined by MRC members when they were ‘friends’ with TNI and continued on msxposse while it was TNI approved. I did what I wanted to do as a hobby, not what they wanted. It made me leave the scene 10 years ago, lost my fun with MSX and sold all, only keeping up the technical information on my own website and it is still being enhanced.
Now the MSX world is getting smaller and smaller and the fighting continues with the same persons in charge. It was a wise decision to leave the MSX scene, it does not grow up!
i were seeing that the average attitudes might vary depended on the different hardware supported – for example, in the ColecoVision scene we often see a far more commercial environment (like at AtariAge forum), and nothing avoids me to keep my software-libre attitude on, even if that this situation is annoying for them – and quoting Jacque Fresco again, “if you think that something is impossible, you are just saying that you are going to do nothing about”
Always funny when the aggressors take on a victim role.
I remember you started to attack me out of the blue, to the big surprise of everybody, because I had often defended you against criticism from others.
Your behavior of pulling down your entire site as soon as anyone said something you didn’t like, or someone posted a link to your site (LOL? YES, linking to your site was restricted) is what earned you this: HansO == Hans Angry Now Site Offline
Anyway, talk about growing up. This happened 15 years ago, man…
The posts are deleted here as on MRC. It is adding insult to injury. :lol
The posts I’ve deleted in this thread are PAC’s and my replies to him. The reason? This:
PAC: That’s all, from my side I have nothing to say from now on, it’s clear enough. Be happy with your Relearning MSX. Bye bye…
ME: Oh, it’s that easy, huh? You don’t have the balls to back up your claims. You first accuse me of some “dark past”, then run away without saying what these are.
I’m going to give you once last chance. Say what it is that “the veteran Spanish community doesn’t forget” about my past, or I’m deleting all your messages. You have until I go to bed (2 hours from now).
He was making false accusations about me. I gave him the chance to back up his claims and he didn’t, so I deleted his comments as I said.
This is my personal blog. I don’t have to host anything I don’t want to.
i would prefer to leave those messages, even when offensive – the attitudes just shows what they are by themselves, and that person just lost his opportunity to avoid them
I agree. I usually leave online the insults and threats for that exact reason (see for example the “love” I get in this post). In this particular case I decided to remove PAC’s comments because he was propagating two lies:
1) That I stole the aamsx.org domain from the AAM (Asociacion de Amigos del MSX)
2) That I insulted the admin of the MSX Boixos Club group on Facebook after I left the group
Neither is true, and both have caused people (who don’t know me) to attack me. The first one even included threats of violence: some users threatened to beat me up if I showed up at the MSX user meeting in Barcelona (that was before I moved to Japan).
As you can understand, I’m not interested in giving Paco Santos a podium here to keep spreading this bullshit. I have sent him the proof that both his statements are false via email. He’s welcome to post his opinions here, if he has anything to say.
In any case, his messages aren’t deleted. They’re just “unmoderated”, so I can bring them back any time if it turns out it’s better to do so.
Well nitrofurano, maybe this will make you even more happier, a new MSX Forum has been launched at http://www.cheatmsx.com/forum
I’ve watched your mail and it was related to the default theme that came with the forumsoftware, a new theme has been installed and forum even covers the sections for CheatMSX itself, so people can contribute cheats and stuff through the forum, which means it’s not limited only by email anymore.
Also got 2 skype accounts running, one for my own and 1 for CheatMSX, in case people want to actually have a talk with the man behind all this stuff :)
We all contribute to the scene, eah in it’s own way.
We now have had a shitstorm at MRC, in the future it might even happen again, since history after all intends to repeat itself unfortunately.
At least I’m trying to provide as much as possible to the community, now it’s up to the users to make the most out of it ;)
Javi, after thinking a bit more about this blog post, I wanted to ask you one more question about it: what exactly did you want to achieve with this blog post?
I don’t know what Javi’s intentions were for sure when he wrote this post; but I must say that it has been quite useful to open some people’s eyes and to get them informed about the issue (including me).
So, about your question, I don’t know, and I don’t care. But I publicly thank Javi for highlighting this incident.
Hi Manuel, sorry for the late answer.
The main purpose is to point out that the attitudes of some of the MRC staff members are damaging the MSX scene, in order for them to correct their behavior and avoid the same thing happening in the future.
In a public discussion, when there are personal attacks or lies as happened with foobarry81’s message, the moderators are supposed to intervene in some way. The action will depend on the situation: take the conversation private, ask the attacker to show evidence of his claim, etc.
What they shouldn’t do is step aside or, even worse, add fuel to the fire as they did in this situation.
We know how these things end: we lose good, prolific developers such as Matra (mostly the fault of the Spanish MSX scene), Kralizec (in part because of user mars200you in the MRC forums) or TNI.
The garden metaphor at the end of the post refers to this situation: the groups and users that have been most productive are forced out by the unchecked attacks of others who don’t produce. In the end what remains is a community composed mainly by people who don’t actually do anything.
A secondary purpose is to encourage other users to stop being passive in these situations and step in themselves. We don’t have to be moderators in a forum in order to tell a troublemaker to take his garbage somewhere else.
I understand that most people don’t say anything in order to avoid getting involved in the conflict, but if we care about those groups who produce for MSX then we have to help and defend them when they’re being attacked. If we don’t do this then we’re almost as guilty as the attacker, because of our inaction, when the developer decides to stop producing for MSX.
Lastly, I wanted to express my frustration with what happened in the MRC thread.
OK, thanks for clearing that up.
So, what do you think has been achieved with this blog post? So, what has been the net effect so far?
Are you a journalist now, Manuel?
What is the point of your questions?
Do you intend to do something with the answers?
Have you been in contact with the MRC staff about this?
How do you feel about your messages so far?
Manuel:
At the very least, we’re having a conversation that wouldn’t be happening otherwise.
Our opinions are here for everybody to see (mine and those of several others who have posted here). I’m assuming the people who run the MRC have seen them. Now it is up to them to do whatever they feel appropriate with this information, or not.
I guess MRC build a bit of a bad rep with things going out of hand (which is always most likely to happen on the most popular forum anyway) but to dig up things again that happened over 10 years ago… that seems very unrelated.
I do think the “shitstorm” should’ve been moderated instead of being wiped entirely, but it wasn’t a hostile action.
So, a poorly handled “shitstorm”? Yeah, I think so… but referring to stuff that happened over 10 years ago to fuel your argument is weak.
Hi Samor,
Actually, you and I are in agreement.
Please note that I’m not the one digging up things from the past.
The only reason why I’m mentioning the stuff that happened 10 years ago is because the MRC admins are the ones still keeping it alive. Their dispute happened in 2005, but they’re still attacking GuyveR800 because of this.
If that’s the case it’s long overdue for them to stop that.
Exactly.
Let me point out that after private discussion with Javi during last weeks about my previous comments against him, I have to say I haven’t solid arguments to sustain my position, my apologies.
This is a clear example about how a lack of information don’t help to improve the situation which feeds back into the set of problems, the same happens with the MRC very often.
There are a lot of bad atmosphere and resentment discouraging the whole community from time to time. If there is no chance to solve our personal issues from the past (yes because they are mainly personal), then please avoid adding fuel to the fire from now on and put your best efforts to build a better MSX scene in a constructive manner.
This is not a matter of black and white so like it or not we are playing in the same team and our current acts will impact on the MSX health forever.
(Clapping)
Excellent post.
Now, try convincing the rest of the MRC staff to cease their sustained and more than a decade long campaign of misinformation and defamation that has successfully antagonized a lot of the MRC community against me and my supporters.
After many attempts to get the MRC admins to stop attacking me, I gave up on rehabilitation…
You are right that we are all playing in the same team, but for some people their ego is apparently more important than the health of the team.
If only more people were willing to investigate what really happened in the last 15 years…
Hi.
I was surprised to find this thread.
PAC apologizing for something.
PAC recognizing that he is wrong.
PAC crucified me in the MRC.
PAC censured me for my opinions.
PAC has a serious problem.
Greetings.